Tuesday, February 17, 2009

Orthodox in theology, Catholic in Church...

... do Eastern Catholics have an identity crisis? I sometimes wonder. Why is it that the creed in the Divine Liturgy isn't changed to reflect the filioque? Being Catholic isn't an ethnicity and liturgy is more than the nationalities of the congregation. Also, Catholicism is not a sum of it's Romanism. It would seem Eastern Catholics go through a great deal of effort to distance themselves from the traditions of Rome so much so one wonders "why not just be Orthodox".

No point to this, just some late night ramblings.

14 comments:

berenike said...

It is in some GC churches.

I met this chap some years ago. He p'd off many of the Greek Catholics (Ukrainian, Slovakian) in the institute when he admitted that he thought the GC's should take the Filioque out; more than one of the byzantine rite students pointed out afterwards that people died for the filioque in their part of the world.

One North American GC thought it was funny to take it out, and I think one or two of the more crazedly nationalist Ukrainian students had leanings that way. The rest were Unimpressed.

rightwingprof said...

The Ruthenians are purging the DL of Latinisms that have crept in over the years. I believe the filioque clause is on the chopping block.

Josephus Flavius said...

I don't think I've ever been to one of our (Greek Catholic) parishes and heard the filioque.

berenike said...

"Latinisms" - is it not a telltale word when used of a doctrinal matter? Nation over church is something of a problem among the GCs round here, and "more Byzantine than thou" seems to be rife among the Americans. With a dose of the kind of liturgical archeology practised by Bugnini and Luykx (who was involved with the revision of the Latin rite breviary).

Sorry about the snarky tone of this comment :-(

Mimi said...

As someone who has a Catholic background and became Orthodox, I've often wondered myself. But, honestly I am looking from the outside.

Josephus Flavius said...

"Nation over church is something of a problem among the GCs round here, and 'more Byzantine than thou' seems to be rife among the Americans."

Sadly a common problem we have. Some of the rudest behavior towards Latin clergy I have seen from Byzantine Catholic hard-liners. Conversely (and sadly), some of the rudest behavior I have seen in a church was done by TradCaths. Most recently our failure to kneel during the congregation forced one such visitor to call us heretics and they stormed out of the nave.

There are pains to be expected as we reclaim our traditions. There are also pains to be expected as Latin Catholics learn first-hand that the practices of their church are not _the_ only valid way to do things.

Josephus Flavius said...

congregation=consecration :)

Josephus Flavius said...

And for fun... article 1 of the Union of Brest:

1.—Since there is a quarrel between the Romans and Greeks about the procession of the Holy Spirit, which greatly impede unity really for no other reason than that we do not wish to understand one another—we ask that we should not be compelled to any other creed but that we should remain with that which was handed down to us in the Holy Scriptures, in the Gospel, and in the writings of the holy Greek Doctors, that is, that the Holy Spirit proceeds, not from two sources and not by a double procession, but from one origin, from the Father through the Son.

ignorant redneck said...

There was a councel, I do believe it was constance, but don't hold me to that, that said that Eastern churches who united with rome didn't need to use the filoque, especially as it wasn't put in the creed by the councel of Nicea or of Constantinople.

Matthias said...

"It would seem Eastern Catholics go through a great deal of effort to distance themselves from the traditions of Rome so much so one wonders 'why not just be Orthodox'"

Why do we have to give up our Byzantine theology and heritage? The Orthodox practices are fully Catholic, the Orthodox Church has not developed much at all in the time after the tragic schism. Our practices are just as legitimately Catholic as the Latin practices. Its interesting that you note the nationalism bit, oddly enough this was a major problem in the latin church in America during the early days of immigration. I leave you with this quote from His Beatitude Lubomyr
"...No, dear brothers, one can be Ukrainian, one can be Byzantine, one can be at the same time Catholic. These different elements do not contradict one another. So this is why neither the Latin Church nor the Orthodox Church is very happy with us. "- His Beatitude Lubomyr Husar, Patriarch of Kviv-Halych

Carolina Cannonball said...

Clark, let me rephrase...

"It would seem Eastern Catholics go through a great deal of effort to distance themselves from the THEOLOGY of Rome so much so one wonders 'why not just be Orthodox'"

I do not mean to say that eastern Catholics need to abandon their traditions (little t) or not retain the beauty of the Liturgy, but from experience I have noticed the theology is more Orthodox in nature than Catholic.

Matthias said...

Because our theology is one of our Traditions. VII says very clearly that Eastern churches must recover fully their lost traditions in spirituality, liturgy, theology, etc. We are Orthodox Christians in communion with Rome. The Orthodox have held the same theology since the earliest years of Christianity, Its not as if the Church universal was Latin theologically speaking until the great schism...

Carolina Cannonball said...

"We are Orthodox Christians in communion with Rome."

Are we. I thought we were Catholic.
Hence the confusion. There is more to the differences in theology than just adhering to the Pope.

Matthias said...

The Church is Orthodox and Catholic. The only difference in theology is that we don't believe the Pope is in error or that Latin theology is heretical, but merely another way of expressing the same Faith.
"Our attitude practically is that between the Orthodox and ourselves there are no differences in faith. Questions like purgatory, the Immaculate Conception or the filioque are theological concepts, not faith. And they of course are very different, but they are ultimately complementary. So they do not represent a different faith. They represent a different understanding of the gift of faith."- Patriarch Lubomyr Husar