Monday, November 29, 2010

I roam the blog-o-sphere looking for the ruin of souls...

... yup. That's me. Succubus and norvus ordo sympathizer. I troll the internet luring pious men and women into spiritual apathy and eternal damnation...

To accomplish my diabolical plan I compose posts like this and say things like this...

The mass in extraordinary form is not a magical cure all. It will not suddenly make Pelosi, and other "Catholic" politicians like her, renounce their heretical ideology or stop self proclaiming to be speaking for the Church. I do recall the existence of heresy before Vatican II.

There was never a time in Church history when everything was perfect and unity existed. The Church is made up of sinners and has been hounded by scandal long before Bugnini.

The only perfect church is the Church Triumphant.

In-fighting over who has the more potent holy water or the most Jesus in their Eucharist will ruin more souls and lead more people away from the Church than anything I have ever blogged about here. Please. Do not flatter me by assuming I have that much influence. Please. Do not insult my regular readers by assuming they could be so easily led astray by an insignificant blogger such as myself.

Anathema sit. Hiss. Spit. Growl. Whatever.

47 comments:

Jessica of Faustina Farm said...

"In-fighting over who has the more potent holy water or the most Jesus in their Eucharist will ruin more souls and lead more people away from the Church than anything I have ever blogged about here."
That is a great sentence with a big truth!

Charlie said...

Ayyyymen sistah'

David L Alexander said...

"... an insignificant blogger such as myself."

... who got 20 comments at last count for writing "stuff like this." Maybe if you used a picture of a litter of puppies in your post, you'd be more significant, ever think of that? Reach for the stars, hon.

Teresa said...

What an absurd comparison to make - comparing the Church divide to segregation!

While I agree that bringing back the mass in extraordinary form would not be a cure all I do think that if we returned to celebrating certain rituals which were practiced prior to Vatican II that could help to lower certain male egos down a notch or two. Some priests have made Mass all (or mostly) about them and not about God. I am happy that the Roman Missal is being changed to be in more conformity with the proper translation and honoring God in a more appropriate fashion as well.

Theocoid said...

Preach it, sister!

Of course, only at the appropriate times... not during the Liturgy of the Word, by any means...

We have to stop being a Church of polarity and simply be the Church Christ founded. You are absolutely on target, which means you will be the brunt of attacks. May God grant you fortitude... heh, I think He already has.

Fuquay Steve said...

Remember, traditionalists are people too. So lets sing (per V II) : "Up, Up with People", hold hands and sway back and forth to the guitar.

3puddytats said...

Amen sister...

The Mass is the Mass..no matter what flavor..

And frankly--if the NO Mass had not come around, I probably wouldn't be Catholic...And JPII the Great and Cardinal Mahoney made the Catholic Church approachable for me.. how dare certain people badmouth a pope and a cardinal...if they were just bad people they would have never gotten where they are/were...

And holy priests and religious brothers and sisters need to be respected wheter they wear habits and cassocks or blue jeans and street clothes. As I heard one Carmelite friar say at our Congress "The monk makes the habit, not the habit makes the monk."

Divided we fall faster than anything...nowadays we need to be united under Christ, and have Mama Mary smack us REAL HARD, us squabbling quarrelling children.....

Sara

Just another mad Catholic said...

I for one have never claimed that the EF is a magic bullet that will turn peolosi in to St Elizibeth.

However I find that you will not find crazy herteical people who attend the TLM under SP.

Sara

whilst your carmalite friar was correct I must stress the witness of the habit/cassock both to the world and to Catholics; my experience is that the congregations that wear the habbit tend not to be involved in any funny business.

shadowlands said...

So, just out of curiosity, what is the strongest proof Holy water available?

margaret said...

How can you tell a sister in blue jeans is a sister in order to give her sisterly respect in the first place?

Fuquay Steve said...

I thought Holy Water spreads disease and was removed from those 'beautiful' modern churches or who place the font in some dark corner where the confessional used to be. Communion rails can be used in the fellowship hall for keeping the donut line orderly.

Ink said...

Yes, the Church has been constantly rife with heresies. Yes, the Church now has lots of NO abuses. No, Extraordinary Form will not solve everything. There is, however, a reason it is called "extraordinary." If there were no Ordinary Form, we would have no Extraordinary Form. The word "extraordinary" in and of itself is a comparison.

That's not to say that I don't extremely enjoy a reverent Latin Mass. I actually extremely enjoy a reverent English Mass too. "Reverent" is the key word here: many people fail to remember that the glorification of God is the focus and sole end of our lives here on Earth.

The Ironic Catholic said...

Welcome to the joys of teaching Catholic theology, sister. I deal with this once a week in class! Wheeee! ;)

Colleen said...

Well, like you said there have always been scandles and problems in the Church, but things look especially bleak right now (and there must be a reason). Priests in my area and most areas of the world serve three or four parishes -- because we have a severe shortage of priests. Many churches are being closed. Many, many Catholics do not believe in Transubstantiation. They used artificial birth control and they think missing Mass on Sunday is no big thing.

cathmom5 said...

"My prayer is not for [the disciples] alone. I pray also for those who will believe in Me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as You are in Me and I am in You. May they also be in Us so that the world may believe that You have sent Me." --Our Lord Jesus Christ (John 17:21,22)

Whether one likes the TLM or the NO, BOTH have their place in the ONE Church founded by Our Lord. I would probably not be Catholic today if the TLM were the standard, either. It is too intimidating. I went to public school where Latin is no longer talk. The Church might just as well be in saying Mass in Klingon, as far as the vast majority of Protestants are concerned.

I understand the love for the TLM--I really do--but I don't understand the snobbery or the nastiness. I went to and Byzantine Catholic rite recently. If it were offered every Sunday, I might go. It was wonderously spiritual and parts of it were mystical. ALL of these have a place in the ONE Church. Please stop fighting with each other.

Remember Our Lord's command "to help the least of these My Brothers and you help Me." He didn't say you MUST have Mass in Latin or local language. He said, "Go and teach all the world, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

There are more important concerns in our world today. Our witness, not our bickering, is what will bring others to God.

Fuquay Steve said...

So, if indeed there is a place for TLM, and it is offered (even unenthusiastically in most dioceses) and there is a following albeit small but growing, why do you feel the need 'to bring them down a peg'? Sounds kinda prideful and maybe a tad bit bitter that others feel differently about NO than you do. I embrace your love of NO mass, but don't force me to love it for I find it lacking in many areas. I am grateful I am in a parish that offers it frequently. Please share in my gratitude and pray for each other. Don't be ugly with silly elitist claims, it is unbecoming of such a wonderful person.

Patrick Button said...

I prefer the Latin Mass more for its reverence than its language. If some of the reverential practice of the EF could be applied to Mass in the vernacular I would be quite happy.

Terry Nelson said...

You liturgical vixen, you!

Anyway - I'm with you on this.

Jacque said...

"The only perfect church is the Church Triumphant."

I think that pretty much is what I will meditate on today.

The Crescat said...

"However I find that you will not find crazy herteical people who attend the TLM under SP."

Jack/Mad catholic, you jest right? Because that certainly made me laugh. Of course you find heretical people who attend the TLM.... just read some of the comments to original post.

Fuquay Steve, you will not find an instance in this post or the previous one where I ever indicated my personal preference for one form of the mass over the other. In fact, I am not even an Roman Catholic but Eastern so it makes no liturgical difference to me. The accusation of me being elitest and shoving a preferred form down your throat is unfounded and incorrect.

Lazy Disciple said...

Testify, Ms. Crescat!

LD

Just another mad Catholic said...

Cat I said that I you won't find heretics amongst those who attend the TLM under SP (summorum pontificum); you might find people who don't like the NO or strongly prefer the TLM but I've never met anyone who attends a licit TLM (not sspx/sedevacantist Masses) who has espoused heretical views.

The Crescat said...

aside from the ones here who claim to have a higher proof holy water.

Charlotte said...

Crescat: Some Catholics actually DO think they have better holy water. I wrote about it earlier this year: http://cheekypinkgirl.blogspot.com/2010/02/holy-water-vs-blessed-water.html

Teresa: It seems to me that there's more than enough male egos out there in traddyland (laity) to make up for any future absence of priestly male ego in liberal N.O. parishes.

Just Another Mad Catholic:
Protestantism is heresy and many traditional Catholics border on being "Protestant" when they espouse their version of uber-righteousness that surpasses all popes, bishops, and priests. I read it every day on the internet, including just this past week when over at Father Z's blog various commenters were lamenting what a weak and quote "modernist" pope we have right now, saying that Pope Benedict had quote "betrayed them" with his condom comments. Their distrust of a "post-Vatican II" pope was beyond obvious. Maybe you don't run into folks saying things like this at your local TLM parish, but these people making these comments on the internet are attending Latin masses somewhere. I suggest that many of them actually are in parishes like yours, but just keeping their mouths shut in person while having an anonymous field day in commboxes everywhere.

Piotrek said...

Our water is so holy that it has to be contained in a sponge. Beat that.

The Crescat said...

my holy water is so concentrated with piety it burns when I touch it.

Denita said...

I prefer the Latin Mass because for me it is reverent and less distracting. That's not to say that the NO Mass is bad. It too can be reverent. I just prefer to receive Communion from a priest, kneeling, and I don't care too much for modern music during Mass, either. But that's just me. I've never been to an Eastern Church and would like to visit one day.

priest's wife said...

can I put a wrench in the works- the Byzantine Liturgy....!!! :)

love the blog- the blog roll is HUGE- I guess I'll have to wake up really early to make my way through that and find more favorite blogs.

3puddytats said...

I LOVE the comments I get from some Rad Traddies who say that since I'm a convert and not a "cradle Catholic", that I'm not a "real Catholic," whatever THAT means...

Uh yeah...how many Saints were converts?? I was just listening today a podcast done by Fr Z (a convert, by the way, and a Catholic PRIEST) on St Augustine, a convert...another great priest, also a convert---Fr Corapi..And Jesus Himself was a nice Jewish boy...

They can get bent..

Sara

Saint Michael Come To Our Defense said...

It doesn't take much to stir up a bunch of Novus Ordos.

Defending their right to jump off a cliff all the way down until they hit bottom.

*

Fuquay Steve said...

Sara

JP II was terrific in many areas but deficient in other areas. He was a media darling because .....(you fill in the blanks). There are legitimate reasons for those ugly, mean traddies to have concern about the direction of the church before, during and after JP II - after all they (myself included) love the church- and want to see it strengthened not weakened - in liturgy, reverence, beauty, obedience and all the cardinal and theological virtues. There has been too much vice - and that is NOT the traddies fault.

What does get bent mean? Is it derogatory or a compliment?

Piotrek said...

I find bad Latin very distracting and irreverent, but I guess a lot of people can't tell the difference as long as it seems more pious.

Just teasing... clearly... or not... maybe.

Christopher Lake said...

As a revert to the Catholic Church, from years in Protestantism (of the Calvinist stripe and otherwise), it pains me to see the division and fighting in the Church-- and I'm not even referring to the "CINO's".

John Paul II helped to lay the foundation for the wider post-Vatican II availability of the Latin Mass, and Benedict XVI is now building on thst foundation. Even still, I see these great men being derided by some in the Church. We should be *grateful* for the post-Vatican II Popes. They have each taken courageous stands, in various ways, against the culture of hedonism and death that currently threatens the world and the West in particular. They have not been perfect (obviously, as Popes are sinful men too), but neither has any of us (much more obviously, at least in my case!) .

Yes, I wish that the Latin Mass were more widely available (as I have previously written). No, it will not cure all of the ills in the Church (as Kat has written)-- and the Novus Ordo, especially when it is celebrated reverently, is *not* one of those ills. The Mass is still the Mass, in Latin, English, and any/every other language.

Brothers and sisters, there is so much fighting among the various camps of Protestant Christianity. We should not emulate this tendency as the striving-to-be faithful of the Catholic Church. We have a Magisterium, an historic, apostolic, *living* teaching authority guided by the Holy Spirit. We have a strong Pope in Benedict XVI. Yes, there are problems in the Church, serious problems, even among some of the Bishops and Cardinals. However, has it not always been so, in the light of history? Compared to some periods, this is a time of *renewal* for the Church!

As the striving-to-be faithful Catholic laity, we should unite and fight less, so that, as Christ prsyed, the world would see that we are one and would come to know that He and the Father are one. Whether "Novus Ordo" or Tridentine," we are all in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church that Christ founded. Let's show the world that being in the Church is a *joyful* reality! (I'm writing this to myself as much as to anyone else!)

Christopher Lake said...

Typos... "as Christ *prayed*," I meant to type... it is early in the morning for such a long post. :-)

Teresa said...

Charlotte:

The difference is nowadays men enter the priesthood because they choose to and feel that they are called and there are many men who chose to become priests in the older generations mostly because it was expected of them by their parents. There are those priests, who are 55 or above, whose hearts weren't really in it for God and after Vatican II and the word changes happened they took those specific improper translations like "peace be with you" instead with the spirit" to heart and amd their huge egos turned into pride.

I am not saying that all priests prior to 1980 had big egos or that none have big egos today, but those by far today who enter the priesthood today do so not because they are expected to today but because they feel God is calling them to the priesthood. Think about it- the more conservative orders are thriving today while the liberal orders are dying out.

The Crescat said...

Dear Saint... I do believe things were "stirred up" when you missed the ENTIRE point of my original post in your haste to condescend myself and my readers.

Comprehension of the topic is usually essential when choosing to make challenges.

PLEASE EVERY ONE CALM DOWN. We are all members of the ONE holy Catholic Apostolic Church, let's try behaving that way.

Therese Z said...

also a convert---Fr Corapi..

Nope. He was a very, VERY fallen-away cradle Catholic.

Pedro said...

May I offer a comment.

I think distinctions should be made.

For one part, the in-fighting, the name-calling, the spirit of division one finds in these "Novus Ordo vs. Traditional" discussions are, as you say, dangerous to the souls.

But, on the other hands, the issues are still there, and they should be discussed. One cannot let that the laudable intention of stopping uncharitable attitudes would affect the proper examination of the issues over which those uncharitable discussions arise!

It would seem "more" Catholic to say the Mass is the Mass, Holy Water is Holy Water... but when we sit down and read the words of the prayers -which do matter, since we believe prayer is heard and answered by God- there is an actual difference, not only of style and language, but of content: a different theology, or at least a different theological emphasis is to be found in the new books that are certainly troublesome. Of course that doesn't mean that those Catholics who worship with those new books and new prayers might as well be treated as pagans. We are, as other commenters said already, members of the One Church, the Kingdom of Christ, a royal Priesthood. And precisely because of that we should "test everything" -with charity, patience, and zeal for the souls- "and hold fast to what is good" - wherever it is to be found-.

Dre said...

My traddie friends suggested that I read the rhine flows into the tiber, that it would piss me off. I thought it would push/me from occasional tlm mass goer to full fledged traddie. However, the opposite happened, I believe the changes needed to happen. (The changes in the actual docs, not clown masses and thelike) I was actually kinda relieved.

therese rita said...

Pedro, Yes, you're correct in saying that Scripture tells us to "test everything." Jesus is also very clear in saying that "You are Peter..." and "What you bind on earth will be bound in heaven..." and again, "He who hears you, hears Me." I could go on.
Any healthy family thrives on spirited discussion and give & take & so does our Church. However, at the end of the day, all Her true children are bound, in love, to follow our Holy Father. The arrogance of persons who appoint themselves judges of John Paul II or Benedict XVI or any of the other amazing Popes we had during the 20th century is really breathtaking.
Every one of them has been a gift to the Church from the Holy Trinity. Instead of cultivating armchair criticism, we should be thanking God and listening carefully to what He's trying to teach us.

Seraphic said...

Squabble squabble gobble gobble.

Just another mad Catholic said...

thereses rita

I know alot of people in the Latin Mass community who feel that the late Holy Father ignored their concerns over the liturgy and the types of Bishops that were appointed during his reign. If I were to criticise John Paul the 2nd I would say that he was overly trusting of his Bishops; some of whom were actively opposing the Churches teaching on life and social issues; and on theological matters e.g. womens ordination.

Brian said...

I am sorry, but I really don't think blog posts such as these do anything but perpetuate uncharitable attitudes. I sympathize with many points made on both sides, but I have to say that many need to return to the basic commandment to love one another and be in a proper state of mind before commenting. Many of the comments have been disheartening to read.

Saint Michael Come To Our Defense said...

Dear Mr. Brian,

Once there were lost islands, but most of them have been found; once there were lost causes, but many of them have been retrieved; but there is one lost art that has not been definitely recovered, and without which no civilization can long survive, and that is the art of controversy. The hardest thing to find in the world today is an argument. Because so few are thinking, naturally there are found but few to argue. There is prejudice in abundance and sentiment too, for these things are born of enthusiasms without the pain of labor. Thinking, on the contrary, is a difficult task; it is the hardest work a man can do—that is perhaps why so few indulge in it. Thought-saving devices have been invented that rival laborsaving devices in their ingenuity. Fine-sounding phrases like “Life is bigger than logic” or “Progress is the spirit of the age” go rattling by us like express trains, carrying the burden of those who are too lazy to think for themselves.

Archbishop Sheen

http://catholicism.org/sheen-decline-controversy.html

*

Jessica of Faustina Farm said...

Saint Michael Come To Our Defense,
That was an great article. Thank you for the link. Archbishop Sheen left an amazing treasure in his writing.

Lazy Disciple said...

Oh, Kat, you've really stirred up a hornet's nest this time!

Remember: if everyone is mad at you, you're probably getting it right.

Substantively: liturgy in the Latin Church has always been mediocre in practice. The faithful have always been right to demand better, and they have always exercised their right in appallingly uncivil terms.

As far as I am concerned, the reform of the liturgy might have have stopped with the 1965 Missal (I'd have been quite happy if it had). The Consilium went way beyond its mandate: overstepped its bounds by mighty leaps; made unnnecessary, harmful and not a few just plain silly changes; organized the liturgical books with - pardon me - Byzantine complexity (viz. the seemingly endless ad libs); contributed in these and numberless other ways to the false impression that Vatican II had been a council of rupture.

I go to the mediocre NO Mass at my parish (or the other parish, which is actually closer to my house - both are within a quarter-mile) and do not feel the need to rend my garments, beat my chest, or spread ashes on my head.

Traditionalists need to recognize that they are right about most things, and move on.

As for the holy water thing: the Book of Blessings works just fine, for the very simple reason that Holy Mother Church says the prayers in the Book work. Now, I agree that the prayers are written VERY poorly, that they fail to make important distinctions regarding the kinds of actions the Church's minister is asking of God, etc., etc., and so forth. Fine. It's not a magic trick. If Holy Mother CHurch says the prayers work, then the prayers work.

This does not mean that the Book ought not to be suppressed and ordered burned publicly as soon as possible - but it does mean that for now, the prayers in the Book are valid.

There, I said it.

therese rita said...

Bishop Sheen's article linked above is well worth the read but it doesn't provide a figleaf for RadTrads who have decided to drive off the road on the right. The fact is Sheen is speaking in favor of Controversy based on Truth. The Truth, as Jesus said, is He Himself. That Truth is Truly and Completely Present in His Church here on earth. Anyone who decides that they know better than that Church has, by definition, set himself up as the judge of God & left the arena of honest Controversy of which Sheen speaks.