Monday, November 22, 2010

oppression and segregation...

... really now? It's like Godwin's Law for Catholics... comparing the ritual divide within The Church to segregation. Personally I try to refrain from trivializing significant events in history to make points.

But what do I know. I'm just a simple Catholic not a famous theologian.

Personally I've grown weary of the lament that not offering a TLM/MEF in every parish is akin to the very real oppression of racial segregation. It's especially tasteless to bemoan the "unfairness of it all" when the slaughter and persecution of Christians in moslem dominated countries continues daily. Catholics are being killed while attending mass and we here in the States quibble over access to certain forms.

We have enough division within the Church that we don't need help contriving more.


Pablo said...

The Novus Ordo side would not be a water cooler, it would be a picture of Stonehedge.

And the Tridentine side would be a Holy Water dispenser with real Holy Water.

Do you know the difference between Holy Water and Novus Ordo Water?


The Crescat said...

Pablo, I did not photoshop the image. That was used on another blog, the one I linked to, to illustrate the "unfairness of it all." [/sarcasm]

It bugged me so strongly when I saw it. I've personally grown weary of the "oh, the unfairness of it all" that not every parish offers a TLM and comparing it to very real oppression, like, oh I don't know, segregation. Especially when the slaughter of innocents happens every day to Assyrians and other Christians in moslem dominated countries.

It's a tacky comparison and belittle to other very real persecutions. We have enough divisions in the Church that we don't need help contriving them.

Pablo said...

Dear Miss Crescat,

read my comments again.

take a stab at answering my question.

It brings the issue into perspective.

God be with you, Senorita.


The Crescat said...

"Do you know the difference between Holy Water and Novus Ordo Water?"

No. What do you think the difference is?

Pablo said...

As a Roman Catholic Man, what I think does not matter. What the Church teaches is what my opinion is.

Before Vatican II, Holy Water was made in this manner:

Holy Water blessing: (also in English)
``Exorcizo te, creatura aquæ, in nomine Dei Patris omnipotentis, et in nomine Jesu Christi, Filii ejus Domini nostri, et in virtute Spiritus Sancti: ut fias aqua exorcizata ad effugandam omnem potestatem inimici, et ipsum inimicum eradicare et explantare valeas cum angelis suis apostaticis, per virtutem ejusdem Domini nostri Jesu Christ: qui venturus est judicare vivos et mortuos et sæculum per ignem.
Deus, qui ad salutem humani generis maxima quæque sacramenta in aquarum substantia condidisti: adesto propitius invocationibus nostris, et elemento huic, multimodis purificationibus præparato, virtutem tuæ benedictionis infunde; ut creatura tua, mysteriis tuis serviens, ad abigendos dæmones morbosque pellendos divinæ gratiæ sumat effectum; ut quidquid in domibus vel in locis fidelium hæc unda resperserit careat omni immunditia, liberetur a noxa. Non illic resideat spiritus pestilens, non aura corrumpens: discedant omnes insidiæ latentis inimici; et si quid est quod aut incolumitati habitantium invidet aut quieti, aspersione hujus aquæ effugiat: ut salubritas, per invocationem sancti tui nominis expetita, ab omnibus sit impugnationibus defensa. Per Dominum, amen.´´

"O water, creature of God, I exorcise you in the name of God the Father almighty, and in the name of Jesus Christ His Son, our Lord, and in the power of the Holy Spirit. I exorcise you so that you may put to flight all the power of the Enemy, and be able to root out and supplant that Enemy with his apostate angels: through the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who will come to judge the living and the dead and the world by lire. Amen.

Let us pray.

O God, Who for the salvation of mankind has built Thy greatest mysteries on this substance, water, in Thy kindness hear our prayers and pour down the power of Thy blessing + into this element, made ready for many kinds of purifications. May this, Thy creature, become an agent of divine grace in the service of Thy mysteries, to drive away evil spirits and dispel sickness, so that every- thing in the homes and other buildings of the faithful that is sprinkled with this water may be rid of all uncleanness and freed from every harm. Let no breath of infection, no disease-bearing air, remain in these places. May the wiles of the lurking Enemy prove of no avail. Let whatever might menace the safety and peace of those who live here be put to flight by the sprinkling of this water, so that the healthfulness, obtained by calling upon Thy holy name, may be made secure against all attack. Through our Lord Jesus Christ, Thy Son, Who lives and reigns with Thee in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, for ever and ever. R. Amen."**

Then the salt is likewise blessed using this prayer and the salt and water is mixed with the third exorcism prayer over both of them.

The Devil in his pride that drove him from Heaven, hates all creatures, especially the lowest form of creatures, water.

God, in His punishment of Satan, has placed this lowest of creatures above Satan in the form of Holy Water.

When the smoke of Satan entered the Church at Vatican II, the Devil also attacked Holy Water. He had his friends change the prayer making it blessed water.

Blessed things cannot bless others.

So, the ability to put to flight Satan and his demons is not in the Blessed Water.

It is not a choice between what types of Holy Water, what types of Sacraments, what type of Mass.

There is only one road, and it is straight and narrow: Tradition.

When the pro-Tridentine Mass crowd argues for the Mass, they are arguing on the behalf of souls.


Smiley said...

rah rah
you tell em crescat, a Novus ordo said with reverence is better than a TLM said badly.

3puddytats said...

The Mass is the Mass...

I even had my Guardian Angel whisper it in my ear as I was enduring a rather "joyful Mass" while experiencing a migraine..

Those who bitch about the Mass need to come to Southern Utah where the little mission churches have Mass once a of the time communion service with lay ministers and MAYBE a deacon...I'm sure they don't complain about what flavor the Mass is...


mark said...

As long as I don't have to listen to Spanish I'm OK.

Christopher Lake said...

I am choosing not to go to an all-Latin Mass parish (which I could actually go to) at this time, because I am so wary of the "Novus Ordo is heresy" attitude among some rad-trad Catholics.

Vatican II is a legitimate Council of the Church which has been misinterpreted and misapplied by many in the Church. In spite of the misinterpretations and misapplications, the Counil does legitimately allow for the Mass in the vernacular. The Tridentine Mass is not the only valid Mass. While I do agree that it should be available MUCH, MUCH more widely, it is simply not the only "true Mass."

Kat is right-- there is enough division in the Church. We don't need to create more. Ironically, the infighting in the Church, between rad-trads and conservatives, alone, makes the Church appear, to the uninformed observer, rather "Protestant." What a tragedy. (I attend a parish in which the Novus Ordo is mostly in Latin, for all Masses, with a bit of Greek.)

Andrea said...

I agree with Christopher. Personally, I tend to go to the ordinary form most of the time, but am a traddy sympathizer. I think it should be offered far more. I didn't even know about it until a couple of years ago. (I walked into one by accident.) I get sick of both sides making bad guys out of the other side. The NO is valid and the TLM (as Pappa B put it) "Sacred then, sacred now" It's not about how you FEEL when you come out, it's about God. Everyone play nice!

Andrea said...

And another thing!...

I would probably go to the TLM more, but the parishioners are so darn weird. I try to overlook that and focus on the Priests because they give outstanding sermons and are great in confession. In the most reverent NO around here, the sermons are light weight and not much guidance in confession.

Dr. Eric said...

You go to church for the Liturgy, not the parishioners.

Someone above commented that a properly celebrated OF is better than a poorly celebrated EF. That is a false dichotomy. You should compare a poorly celebrated OF to a poorly celebrated EF. And from some of the abuses I've seen, I would think at most of us would prefer a poorly celebrated EF.

Andrea said...

But if the parishioners give me a hard time about when I'm in the gift store and I ask for the Magnificat and the clerk makes a nasty comment. (Geez, I forgot there was a difference, I just know when I follow it I stay out of sin. EXXCCUUSSEE me!) And that's just one example. They are jerks! That is my point about the parishioners. They are angry and/or having a piety contest. Sorry, I'm struggling with sin, I can't handle all this other garbage/politics. You attract more people with honey than vinegar...even if you are right.

Christopher Lake said...

Dr. Eric,

You are right that we go to Mass for the Liturgy, not the parishioners. With that said, if a particular, traditional, all-Latin Mass parish seems to draw many people with a harsh, critical spirit, then it might simply be more spiritually healthy for me, personally, to be at an orthodox OF parish which is *derided* by rad-trads. It's sad, to me, that many rad-trads don't even think that there *is* any such thing as an "orthodox OF parish"....

therese rita said...

Andrea, I only attend TLM once a week, during the week, for the same reason. I like the form of the Mass bc of the reverence for the Eucharist but there seems to be little reverence for other Church teachings.
Kat, I admire your courage for posting this. Your point re: the real persecution and death of our fellow Catholics was, of course, lost in the comments which only make your point more clearly! Catholics in the USA need to take some advice from a wonderful Protestant lady, Corrie tenBoom, who died in 1983. She said she prayed everyday for the grace "to see great things great & small things small." The devil always tries to get us to do the opposite & he's doing a great job of it in many parishes in this country.

The Crescat said...

Theresa Rita, I gave up participating in the comments here when someone actually nit picked the potency of holy water... really? really?

From that moment on the entire point I was trying to make was lost. At least one person got it.

Thank you.

Janny said...

The moment you begin calling the popes of the Vatican II era, and those after, "Satan's friends" have already set yourself up as a higher authority than the Magisterium. Which, in its essence, is exactly what Martin Luther did with his 95 Theses.

So who's the Protestant then?

Kat, you did well to post this. I have fought this battle in other places, and it's a shame when one side is so convinced of its own sanctity that unless you agree with every single minor aspect of their liturgical platform, you are part of the "smoke of Satan entering the Church." For 99% of Catholics out there, our battles are much more obvious and insidious: let's get the Catholic vote away from so-called "Catholic" politicians who support abortion; let's get our so-called "Catholic" kids to stop cohabiting before marriage; let's get our so-called "Catholic" population to stop contracepting. In other words, don't we have bigger fish to fry--pun intended--than quibbling over liturgy? And do rad trads even GET that there are people suffering far worse for their faith than having to put up with a Novus Ordo Mass???

Sheesh, and sheesh.


Jane said...

Would it be nice if I could attend the form of the Mass that I prefer without driving for an hour or more? Yes. Would it be nice if my parish's choir director would leave his guitar at home? Yes.

Am I grateful that I can attend Mass any day of the week, and could easily walk if my car broke down? That Jesus is present in the Eucharist a mere half mile from my home? Very grateful.

Thanks for the reminder, Crescat. I am one of those who tends to get caught up in the liturgy wars, because of my and my husband's professions. Perhaps this Advent will be a good time to remember that many Catholics do not have the privilege of attending Mass in any form, or not doing so safely.

Saint Michael Come To Our Defense said...

You are bringing harm to souls by advocating a policy of "Any old port in the storm" when it comes to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and Sacraments.

Say goodbye to Father Bob for a few days and communicate with a traditional Priest of Christ.

Abbey Roads has a good video at the moment of something that can only happen in your Church.

In Holy Mother Church this would never happen.

This is an invitation for you to join the Roman Catholic Church.


The Crescat said...

Saint whatever...

Please re-read, carefully, what I posted. I did not advocate either form of the mass. I was mentioning that it is very poor taste to bemoan ... oh, why bother. If you didn't get it before I can not make you get it now.

I don't need your condescending "invitation" to join the Catholic Church, as I am already a member.

Adoro said...

Wow, non-saint-Michael, why don't YOU consider joining the Catholic Church, because by your comment, you certainly aren't a part of us.

And quite honestly, if you're using Abbey-Roads for support, you clearly don't realize he's all about satire and isn't something any legitimate scholar or authority would use as a reference.

Cres, I totally get what you're saying. Keep up the good fight and don't let the haters get you down. They got their heads up their posteriors and actually enjoy that view which is why they focus on it so much. (Besides, their heads are stuck and it's all they can offer by way of their own personal observation).

The Ironic Catholic said...

I'm with you on this one, Crescat.

Word verification: spitessi. Sounds like a Roman put down. No idea what's up with that.

Adrienne said...

Good grief... :-)

therese rita said...

When posted a couple of weeks ago on "Driving off the road on the right", the very first comment was that what I said was "utter nonsense". So much for constructive criticism ;-)

Charlotte said...

Crescat is right. Amen, sister! (And yes, Abbey Roads is more satire than not.)

I just wrote a post a few days back in a similar vein, concerning the rotten things TRADS have been saying about Pope Benedict since this condom controversy broke:

Dymphna's Road also has similar commentary in the last week - and she likes the TLM.

I agree, I have better things to worry about than if my melancholic personality and preferences have been satisfied by a Latin liturgy. I have said it before and I'll say it again - TLM advocates are mostly advocates based on preference, style, and personality. And I'll also repeat here my firmly held belief that being into the TLM is a FAD right now, fueled by the mostly orthodox Catholic blogosphere. (Because let's face it - how many "liberal" Catholic blogs are actually out there?) Many who are fascinated with the TLM now, may in the future back off.

I'm orthodox and conservative in my Catholicim. But I'm just trying to get through a day without entering into mortal sin or being a jerk. I'm just trying to convince myself to drag my ass into confession. I am grateful for the Eucharist whenever and wherever it's offered. Good enough for me, for now. I have preferenced and opinions about the N.O. mass, you bet I do. But it's not worth it to make it an issue all the time.

priest's wife said...

Crescat- YOU ROCK!

martyrs of Baghdad- pray for us