Monday, June 13, 2011

when love of tradition supersedes loving you neighbor...

... I find it a particularly strange and contradictory habit of some Catholics who routinely make fun of the elderly. "Ha. Ha. Did you see the attendants at the so-and-so 'Catholic' conference? I heard you had to show your AARP card to gain admittance". "What's the best thing about aging liberal hippies? They are going to die soon. Badda bum!", gleefully noting that eventually "their time will come."

Really now. We all will have our time come. Oh, and last time I checked liberal fruit battery was not a singular characteristic in people 65 and over. Which the passing of each generation another will rise to take it's place.

Oh, wait. I forget that liberals were "breading themselves out of existence." Or not breeding. Whatever.

Anyway, you sound like a mean spirited toad when you relish the idea of some one slipping off this mortal coil. So stop it. You are making Baby Jesus Cry.

Probably His Mom too.


Just another mad Catholic said...

pray, pray and pray for liberals

jdonliturgy said...

Thanks, Katrina. I have been appalled by the vitriol served up about the conference by so many of the so-called traditionalists. Not surprised, just appalled. It's a big church and we are not only not all the same in outlook, we never have been (see Paul's epistles) and we never will be. However, we are all children of God trying our faithful best to follow Christ and be open to the action of the Holy Spirit in the Church. Yes, even "those people". They are, like it or not, part of us and we are part of them. Inflammatory and insulting rhetoric does not bring the Church together.

Jane said...

I try not to sink to that level. It's very hard, when my husband's boss (church music director) sends emails addressed to BOTH of us with articles that say, essentially, that young Catholics with traditional leanings are just adolescent and will grow out of it. We'll see the light as we mature. Nevermind that he was radical as a kid, and at 63 hasn't changed his views at all...

But no, that kind of radicalism is not limited to the boomer crowd, as the recent issue of "Pastoral Music," dedicated to articles by college students, shows. Nor are all boomers like that. My parents aren't. Most of the very traditional priests I know are 55-70 years old. Ageism is uncharitable and unproductive.

Anonymous said...

I don't care that they are old and have few active followers as far as Catholics in younger generations. But sometimes the facts have to be documented, just so we don't misunderstand, that the ACC was fairly limited in terms of its target demographic. The notion that these ideas are the future and solution for the Church is still very much accepted with little questioning, as difficult as that is at this point. Many believe that these exact beliefs are what will draw young people in, and that teaching them to little kids in Catholic school or in religious education will serve them well in life. It's reality. Anyway I don't make fun of their oldness but their insistence that the Church must do all that they ask because they have organized to insist upon it. That I do find hilarious. Anyway really like your great blog and glad you enjoyed visiting Rome.

Lee Gilbert said...

Kat, I couldn't agree more.

There is already a steadily increasing drumbeat in the secular culture that the babyboomers and their elders are an unbearable financial weight on the young. There is every reason to believe that we are going to see increasing sympathy for euthenasia that may well pass into state policy as financial pressures increase.

For Catholics, especially some of the most devout and most articulate, to play into this ageism is very disappointing.

There was a very mild form of anti-semitism abroad in Catholic circles long before the 1940's. You see it occasionally in Chesterton. Nothing could have been further from their minds than a "final solution." Nevertheless, it is very likely that these thoughts and attitudes laid some of the cultural groundwork for a more virulent form of the same disease.

Besides that, why would these leaders of the reform of the reform want to undermine their own credibility. They are undercutting their own cause.

Robert Kumpel said...

I'll openly admit that I am fully guilty of making references to the age of these liberals and it's not to humiliate them or even make fun of them. The point is that their brand of Catholicism is moribund. It bears no fruit, it's nearly destroyed the Church from within and it's important to see that there aren't any significant numbers of young people following them or their ideas.

It's not so much that their lives are nearly over. The more important thing to remember is that their ideas go with them and these ideas have been poisonous to the faith.

There's a reason that they don't have young people to fill in the gap they leave: Liberal Catholicism isn't just wrong. It's boring.

Fr. Erik Richtsteig said...

Kat, while I think that criticism should be more substantial than gray hairs and Depends, that conference needs to be criticized and criticized with vitriol. The participants and the line of thinking they represent have done untold damage to souls. We have been far too nice for far too long. Pray for them certainly, but also let them have it with both barrels.

It is worth noting the age of the participants as a sign of the failure of their ideas to endure outside chanceries, seminary faculties, and convents.

Anthony S. Layne said...

I have to agree w/ Fr. Erik. While yes, some of the comments about the age of the average ACC attendee was pretty mean-spirited. But if the average age was pretty high, it's because the memes they let loose within the Church in America aren't condusive to remaining a practicing, involved Catholic ... or even really to remaining Christian. The kids who absorbed their errors are mostly losing the faith and drifting away from the Church; the ones staying are the "JP2 Catholics" who've been either raised w/in the orthodox tradition or who have rediscovered it in their own spiritual wanderings. Moreover, as you yourself have implied, their embrace of the lies of "sexual liberation" led to them contracepting, aborting and sodomizing themselves out of the gene pool ... which is no way to insure the success of an ideology. So comments about their age aren't by that fact alone out of court.

Word verification: "stupe"? How about that ... insulting little beast, isn't it.

Badger Catholic said...

We've gone from burning heretics at the stake to making fun of their tie-dyes and white pony tails. Seems like an improvement to me.

The Crescat said...

Touche, Badger. However, it doesn't make the latter justifiable in comparison.

Come on folks, do you really think once the baby boomers and Woodstock generation shuffle off this mortal plain that all liberal ideology will cease to permeate into the Church?

Heresy has and will always exist within the Church. It is worth noting that the Church has always overcome.

Is getting our knickers in a twist and degrading people really a solution to the problem.

Prayer is. Prayer and trust in Christ's church. [insert some random acoustic guitar strumming for maximum emotional manipulation]

Seriously, as kumbaya-y as it sounds, our vitriol feeds theirs and confirms their misguided beliefs that the Church is in need of enlightenment or some other such nonsense.

And if the majority of those who are gleeful they are a doddering dying breed then why even waste breath and precious time condemning and mocking them? If they are soon to be completely extinct where's the threat that justifies dehumanizing some one?

But since we don't agree with them it's ok to rejoice in their mortality reaching it's end. I see now.

Lvka said...

Hi, CresCat!

apropos loving our neighbour:

a man struggling with cancer needs all the help he can get right now:

Link 1 , Link 2

If you could maybe post about it, to help draw more attention to the case, and help raise as much funds as possible...

Thanks, and God bless!

Badger Catholic said...

It's like trash talking in sports. I for one like sass. I don't take it as any more than that, just a bit of spunk and fun. I love it when folks call me a Taliban Catholic or Temple Police. Cheekyness should flow forth from both ends of the spectrum. If someone wrote an article about a stupid young punk who read an article on the internet, declared his house and sidewalk under the sovereignty of the Hapsburgs until he got bored with it when the next new Catholic internet fad rolled around, I'd have a good laugh reading it.

But worth remembering is that some of those heresies within the Church did lead folks to hell. They aren't innocent bystanders of their situation; they are participants.

The Crescat said...

"...worth remembering is that some of those heresies within the Church did lead folks to hell."

All the more reason to pray. Maybe pity instead of contempt is called for.

And as a regular reader and participator in the comments you know I have no problem with a little trash talk from time to time... we just need to be careful not to become cynical and sardonic. It blackens the soul and causes us to see people not as humans but objects of contempt.

Badger Catholic said...

Fair enough if contempt is the motivation. I will pray to St. Jerome, the patron saint of trash talk.

torculus said...

If someone is leading a life of sin, sowing confusion and dragging others into their sin, i.e., he has put himself well on the road to hell, it's our business to speak the truth in charity to him in the hope that he might repent and be saved.

Are we the Church Militant or the Church Polite? Mollycoddling and mollifying seem to have replaced the biblically approved praxis of fraternal correction.

Sometimes a little shock therapy (such as ridiculing the behaviour - note, I said the behaviour not the person) may be warranted. The crust on the bread of the ACC folk is a little thicker than most, given their age and well-entrenched stubbornness, so a measure of severe wit might be justified in order to clarify for them the stupidity (and gravity) of their bad acts.

Pray for them - indeed!

Cruise the Groove. said...

It sounds like you have been reading Fr Zuhlsdorf WDTPRS.

Fr and the commenters always states that the liberal oldsters time is about up.
Problem is they have taught a new generation of younger people and helped turn them into liberal hipsters and we can look forward to the progeny of their heresy.

Marilyn H said...

I agree that many comments on the ACC debacle seemed to be nasty toward the aged. Most likely because commenters / bloggers tend to be younger. Believe me, there are plenty of young people coming down the pike with wacky ideas about the Church. At the same time there are many older folks who are quite orthodox and are fighting the good fight to keep their parishes on track.

Steve said...

Kat, I commend you for the kindness in your post. I wish more trads could share in that kindness. (One poster in this com box has suggested that the folks at ACC don't even qualify as Christians. I always thought Christ was the one who made that call.)

And, as a liberal/progressive Catholic, I will join in another poster's remark that we should "pray, pray, and pray for the liberals." Yes, please do. We all need prayers, many prayers. And I will return the favor by praying for my conservative friends. May the God who loved each of our souls into existence have mercy on ALL of us. God willing, we will share heaven together and serve God together.

shadowlands said...

Fr Erik said:

'The participants and the line of thinking they represent have done untold damage to souls. We have been far too nice for far too long. Pray for them certainly, but also let them have it with both barrels.'

Father, that is the second time this week I have heard a cry from a defender of treatment dished out to dissidents, of having had to be far too 'nice' for far too long. My only question is, did I miss it? The niceness, I mean. Could you give me one example of a traditionalist being 'too nice' somewhere? I am being serious here, not sarcastic, by the way. I am drawn towards learning about the latin Mass, but it's the adherents scaring me off. I wonder if the liberals feel this way or have they, as you say, indulged your niceness, to no effect, for far too long? Maybe you should ask them? That would mean olive branch dialogue though......

I go out of my way to see the positive in the more traditional bloggers and indeed have met some thoroughly nice ones. Three or four, infact.

You speak of letting people have it with both barrels. I am not familiar enough with the catechism yet, to know if such statements are evoked in hearts from the reading, meditating and understanding of the catechism. Infact, my main book of spiritual learning is a big blue book, which tells me to point the barrel at myself first, although maybe a torchlight is a better word to use, as an analogy. Then again, I have to personally work against a nature that likes shooting it's own mouth off, let alone guns haha!
I don't have a choice about altering my own attitudes and behaviours first. If I don't, I'll stay resentful or scared or crazy excited, or 'woe is me' lonely, then drink, go more insane and eventually die, horribly. I have spent many years blaming others for this but whether or not any of it is someone else's fault, the responsibility for clearing the mess up, is mine (I know! it shocked me too, when they said that). That big blue book I read, says I have to start with me, my heart, my attitude.
This means I find I regularly have to say sorry, for acting in my own strength and judgment(lack of,boy do I like to judge!), instead of remembering I am powerless and acting from God's grace. I do believe Kat has been brave in speaking up for the elderly and infirm. Speaking of a person's incontinence, in a mocking way (as many of Fr Z's commenter's do) as a means to teach them the clarity of truth of God, is somewhat despicable, to my heart. I don't think it would have encouraged me to stop drinking, being mocked I mean, it would make me run into a bottle even more. The point I hear Kat trying to make, is not that the people holding these beliefs shouldn't be exposed for any heresy, but that their age, infirmities or sexuality shouldn't be held up as a stick to beat them with, as we proclaim our truth.

Because that insultung prejudice, may in and of itself, cause untold harm.
Also, saying that because a person is old, their life is over, where is that, in the catechism? Infact, what does the catchism say about how the elderly should be treated? Does anyone actually know? Or care?

As a priest commented(quoted) on my blog yesterday, regarding my post about prejudice titled ''After the conclusion of the conference, a great bonfire of incontinence pads will take place outside of the Cobo Center in protest against the Vatican’s oppression of wymyn.' (this title was taken from an as yet, unmoderated comment on Fr Z's blog)

'Charity requires us always to have compassion on human infirmity.'
St. Catherine of Siena

PS. Sorry this is so long Kat, Father, I hope your gun isn't loaded and pointing at me for saying this......Still, we all gotta go sometime I guess.

The Crescat said...

" not that the people holding these beliefs shouldn't be exposed for any heresy, but that their age, infirmities or sexuality shouldn't be held up as a stick to beat them with, as we proclaim our truth."

Precisely my point.

Leah said...

If anyone is naive enough to think that the liberal disaster is confined to old people, or that increasing numbers of young people aren't buying into it, that one should look up the Los Angeles Education Conference on Youtube. Tons of young people are involved in the liturgies and are in the congregation for their Masses (watch the closing liturgy videos; there is one that has the whole ceremony in it). To make matters worse, the education conference is for Catholics involved in education throughout the nation. Administrators and teachers go there to learn what new bits of weirdness to plant in Catholic students' heads, and inject into their school environment.

Robert Kumpel said...

Leah has a point, but it should be noted that the LA Religious Ed Congress has a large number of people who are there because they HAVE to be. Many religious ed teachers and youth ministers are required to attend or risk losing their jobs.

Perhaps I am among the naive, but I just don't see the same passion for Kumbayachurch and her tired causes among the younger crowd as I do from the older folks. While younger Catholics may have been formed by this ruputurista mentality, they are at least more open-minded at a younger age. The most damning thing about this older crowd is their intransigence. And let's face facts, it's these folks that are often the "Professional Catholics" who run diocesan and parish bureaucracies.

Hopefully, many of these young people can be reached with the message that has been lost for these last 40 years or so, at least if--sorry to say it--the older folks will get out of the way.